Thursday, July 05, 2007

Free Will?

When it comes to the 'free will v. God's sovereignty' debate, as some of my friends will attest, in recent years I have beat the crap out of the bush. Dancing around it is hardly something I like to do. I have still traveled all the way around it for my own position, from Arminian to 'somewhere in the middle' to Calvin and beyond...all the while - beating the bush.
This is not another attempt to do that. Only very recently have I begin to wrestle with it on a much deeper level; a level that seems to temper me from jumping in the ring with my boxing gloves on. Mainly, that the discussion pertains to the character of a Person. It pertains to the characters of 'persons' in general, yes, but it isn't math; it is the reliable, yet mysteriously unpredictable Person of God. Already it sounds like a cop-out, even to me.

I don't have a position to state, it's more of an influence to ponder.

Lewis has been causing me to think about more of the presuppositions that go into such positions. I've been involved in countless debates of Calvin v. Arminian, where the issue of 'what is sin?' never even comes up.
For the moment, I'm finding a great value in more thoroughly examining the foundational assumptions of both arguments, and I'm hoping that this will help clear some of the water for me.
So far, here is an excerpt of Letters to Malcolm by Lewis. This has been a very profitable reflection for me.

"You remember the two maxims Owen [Barfield] lays down in Saving the Appearances? On the one hand, the man who does not regard God as other than himself cannot be said to have a religion at all. On the other hand, if I think God other than myself in the same way in which my fellowmen, and objects in general, are other than myself, I am beginning to make Him an idol. I am daring to treat His existence as somehow parallel to my own. But He is the ground of our being. He is always both within us and over against us. Our reality is so much from His reality as He, moment by moment, projects into us. The deeper the level within ourselves from which our prayer, or any other act, wells up, the more it is His, but not at all the less ours. Rather, most ours when most His. Arnold speaks of us as "enisled" from one another in "the sea of life." But we can't be similarly "enisled" from God. To be discontinuous from God as I am discontinuous from you would be annihilation.
A question at once arises. Is it still God speaking when a liar or a blasphemer speaks? In one sense, almost Yes. Apart from God he could not speak at all; there are no words not derived from the Word; no acts not derived from Him who is Actus purus. And indeed the only way in which I can make real to myself what theology teaches about the heinousness of sin is to remember that every sin is the distortion of an energy breathed into us-an energy which, if not thus distorted, would have blossomed into one of those holy acts whereof "God did it" and "I did it" are both true descriptions. We poison the wine as He decants it into us; murder a melody He would play with us as the instrument. We caricature the self-portrait He would paint. Hence all sin, whatever else it is, is sacrilege.
We must, not doubt, distinguish this ontological continuity between Creator and creature which is, so to speak, "given" by the relation between them, from the union of wills which, under grace, is reached by a life of sanctity. The ontological continuity is, I take it, unchangeable, and exists between God and a reprobate (or a devil) no less than between God and a saint. 'Whither shall I go then from thy presence? If I go down to hell, thou art there also.'
Where there is prayer at all we may suppose that there is some effort, however feeble, towards the second condition, the union of wills. What God labours to do or say through the man comes back to God with a distortion which at any rate is not total.
Do you object to the apparent "roundaboutness"- it could easily be made comic - of the whole picture? Why should God speak to Himself through man? I ask, in reply, why should He achieve, the long way round, through the labours of angels, men (always imperfectly obedient and efficient), and the activity of irrational and inanimate beings, ends which presumable, the mere fiat of omnipotence would achieve with instantaneous perfection?
Creation seems to be delegation through and through. He will do nothing simply of Himself which can be done by creatures. I suppose this is because He is a giver. And He has nothing to give but Himself. And to give Himself is to do His deeds - in a sense, and on varying levels to be Himself - through the things He has made.
In Pantheism God is all. But the whole point of creation surely is that He was not content to be all. He intends to be "all in all."
One must be careful not to put this in a way which would blur the distinction between the creation of a man and the Incarnation of God. Could one, as a mere model, put it thus? In creation God makes - invents - a person and "utters" - injects - him into the realm of Nature. In the Incarnation, God the Son takes the body and human soul of Jesus, and, through that, the whole environment of Nature, all the creaturely predicament, into His own being. So that "He came down from Heaven" can almost be transposed into "Heaven drew earth up into it," and locality, limitation, sleep, sweat, footsore weariness, frustration, pain, doubt, and death, are, from before all worlds, known by God from within. The pure light walks the earth; the darkness, received into the heart of Deity, is there swallowed up. Where, except in uncreated light, can the darkness be drowned?"
-C.S. Lewis Letters to Malcolm

If anyone has thoughts on this, which I'm sure they do, I would greatly appreciate hearing them. The varying positions, and even just fragments of ideas, really help me in my attempt to see a bigger picture. Now that the bush has been mutilated to twigs, I'm beginning to see that I have a lot to learn.

8 comments:

Unknown said...

Man!!!
It was sooo good to see you!!
We both had a really good time.
I'll be praying for you and your family!!
Love you all lots
Desiree

Camlost said...

It was so good seeing you too! You are in my prayers as well!
Let's keep in touch and get together again soon.

mr. hullabaloo said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
mr. hullabaloo said...

This is by no means a substantial comment (and it may be a while before I come up with one), but I have some food for thought:
"...we allow that man has choice and that it is self-determined, so that if he does anything evil, it should be imputed to him and to his own voluntary choosing. We do away with coercion and force, because this contradicts the nature of the will and cannot coexist with it. We deny that choice is free, because through man's innate wickedness it is of necessity driven to what is evil and cannot seek anything but evil. And from this it is possible to deduce what a great difference there is between necessity and coercion. For we do not say that man is dragged unwillingly into sinning, but that because his will is corrupt he is held captive under the yoke of sin and therefore of necessity will in an evil way. For where there is bondage, there is necessity. But it makes a great difference whether the bondage is voluntary or coerced. We locate the necessity to sin precisely in corruption of the will, from which follows that it is self-determined."
John Calvin from Bondage and Liberation of the Will, pg. 69-70

It's not much, but I'm compiling documents as of now so be prepared for more. Also, if you have the time you should look up "Monergism" interesting stuff, especially the its history in the Church. Oh yeah, and I found some Biblical references in favor of Limited Atonement that you may want to look over later.--pardon the deletion, there was a eye-gouging grammatical error.

Camlost said...

Thank you for the substantial comment (in fact it was!). From what I've heard regarding Luther's 'Bondage of the Will', it is quite similar to his stance. Ya gotta love John Calvin!

In the excerpt you posted, I find nothing to disagree with, in fact, he seems to place the question in its true context: that of sin.

It seems that the question really isn't one of sovereignty & freedom, but one of depravity & freedom.

Tell me if this follows...
Adam and Eve had the ability to sin or not sin in the garden. Adam and Eve sinned and by sinning sold us all into slavery to sin. As a sinner, man has no free will, he already gave that up when he ate of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. His will has been corrupted, though originally it was not, so that he is no longer able to choose what is good. He can only sin.

In redemption, Christ, by His death on the cross, satisfies the law's demands and thereby disarms the power that sin had on man's will. Only through faith in Christ can man love what is good. So in a sense, Christ restores man's freedom.

This would mean that man's "free will" does not assist him at all in his salvation, on the contrary, it only assists him in his damnation. Christ purchases us back from the devil so that, by faith, we are able once again to love Him.

Could we say that mankind was created to love and trust God, both love and trust being characteristics of the will. When the straw became bent, it died and was no longer able to be itself; not taking on a new essence, perhaps, but fully and thoroughly corrupting and altering the old.
Once the straw was restored to its original intended purpose, it is not a new straw, but a renewed straw?

Let me know if I'm missing something here, because whenever I try to talk myself through this process, I find that I hold many incoherent positions. This is really helpful to talk out.

Just to throw a little something else in the mix...

John says of the one who is born of God that "he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God." 1 John 3:9

And Paul says "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God." Romans 8:7

It seems that since the fall, we are slaves either way; slaves to righteousness, or slaves to sin.

I can't see how it all fits together yet, but it was an interesting correlation that I hadn't seen before.

PS
I look forward to reading anything on Limited Atonement...
we are still looking for a 2.5 compromise, right? :-p

mr. hullabaloo said...

Well I've read through your sequence both briefly and thoroughly, and I can't see anything missing. Although, I'd like to point out that it's very hard to come up with a comprehensive sequence due to the complexities and details one would have to address. I'm beginning to realize on a new level just how intertwined so many of these issues are. We try to isolate and solve one issue, yet we can't help but bring up other issues because they're so intricately connected to one another, which is kind of an internal indicator of what is truth and what isn't.

As far as mankind's function to trust and love along with renewed vs. new, I believe you're right on there. I haven't read another as of yet to contradict either of those statements. The Reformed Theology topic of Regeneration directly addresses what you said about the renewed straw, and I believe it's very much in accord.
Concerning I John 3:9, I'm going to point you in this direction: http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com/article/1-john-39-and-the-doctrine-of-perseverance
I found it to be a good overall view of the verse, but I did feel a bit unsatisfied so let me know what you think. But I do like your point "It seems that since the fall, we are slaves either way; slaves to righteousness, or slaves to sin;" however, I would like to propose changing "slaves to righteousness" to "bondservants of righteousness" because they carry with them very different connotations even though the thesaurus says they are synonymous. BTW I found a great commentary on Faith and Good Works by John Calvin (who else would it be?). Reading Calvin's actual written work and not just hand-me-down's I realize the genius and inspiration God bestowed on him, and it frustrates and saddens me that some would go to such great lengths to discredit his name solely based off TULIP, which he never authored I might add. As far as the 2.5 compromise, I think I'm going to shoot for something higher, something beyond five points. If that makes sense. However, I will try my best to define some of them more accurately for you, since they do offer a good sample of what Calvin taught, and as far as that goes we'll be shooting for 2.5.

Camlost said...

Yes, trying to separate these points is something like trying to define each of the seven virtues without reference to the others...it’s just not really possible. Not that it’s a hopeless quest to search for any definition; on the contrary, it does seem beneficial. I guess, somehow it seems that there must be distinction, but without separation. It does make for an interesting process in trying to discover the truth; the question seems to keep recurring of where does one begin?

That seems like a cool website and it did give a pretty good overview, but I also found the explanation to be unsatisfactory. I kind of get the feeling from some of the explanations that they are trying to make the scripture true, if that makes sense? I just don’t know that I really buy the idea that what John really meant when he said that “he cannot keep on sinning” was that he doesn’t make a habit of it. That is perhaps what we’d like to see in the Christian life, but what about Paul saying that “the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing?” Without further clarification, it seems contrary to John to say (to quote the website) “When those born of God do sin, conviction, grief, brokenness, misery, sorrow, discontent, all of which lead to repentance, will occur,” when John clearly says that “he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.”

I think that 1 John 3 may relate closely with Romans 7.

What did you think regarding the optional interpretations of 3:9 that were described on the site you addressed?

I am content to replace ‘slaves’ with ‘bondservants’. There is a different connotation, and one that I think is worth having (what does a thesaurus know anyway?).

I know what you mean about Calvin. Just from the very little bit that I’ve read of him directly, he seemed inspired (not that his writings should all be canonized or anything; I guess I need to clarify that with Crystal around - I’m getting in all kinds of trouble over here from the ‘sola scriptura’ Christians). John Calvin has struck me as being very different than many of his followers (not all, and you’re not included); I want to say that he seemed more sincerely convinced, as opposed to logically armed, if that makes any sense.

I would be happy to go ‘beyond 5 points’. Too much good theology has been overlooked due to that Arminian flower acronym.

mr. hullabaloo said...

Hmm. Well none of the other points that were brought up really stuck out to me (however the first point sort of swayed me with Augustine and Luther both holding that point), but that may be because I'm mentally spread pretty thin right now. Although, I do understand the point you're trying to make, and I believe it's a valid one or at least one that I felt when I was reading the commentary. That last sentence they mentioned didn't make much sense to me either, but I think there's a distinction they're trying to make. They establish earlier on that the sin John is referring to is habitual sin; therefore, when they say "when these born of God do sin" they aren't referring to the habitual sin they defined in John's verse but the inevitable sin associated with our corrupt nature.

I'd like to hear more about the relation between I John 3 and Romans 7 if you have the time and will to spell it out for me.